Consenting Adults: Sexual Ethics in the Pagan Community
Speaking: Christine Hoff Kraemer (Author and Theologian), Shauna Aura Knight, (Sex Positivity Activist & Author), Laurie Lovekraft (Priestess & Environmental Activist), Rabbit Matthews (Anti-Rape & Feminist Activist) and LaSara Firefox Allen (Author & Activist)
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Chat Text:
16:07:20 From Lasara Allen : <3
16:11:31 From River Devora and Rynn Fox : 🙁 I have totally had this kind of thing happen too 🙁
16:11:57 From Magdalena Knight : broken stair….
16:12:30 From Dee Shull : *nods* with you Magdalena
16:14:25 From Xochiquetzal, SacredProfanity.com : Honest.
16:42:31 From Laurie Lovekraft : Wonderful, thank you Yeshe.
16:43:23 From Magdalena Knight : Loving all the presentations thus far! <3
16:44:36 From Xochiquetzal, SacredProfanity.com : I remind our participants that questions can be directed PRIVATELY to me, in order to maintain anonymity around this sensitive topic.
16:49:40 From River Devora and Rynn Fox : I got involved in the pagan community during those years too, and had very similar experiences. This is part of why I dropped out of hte community for a handful of years in the early 2000s. Relating so hard here.
16:50:16 From Magdalena Knight : Modeling agency and body authority from early on! Wewt.
16:50:26 From Mark Green : I witnessed a lot of that sort of thing, and it is part of what drove me out of the particular Pagan circles I was moving in at that time.
16:51:02 From an Elder Appentice : A question for the panelists. As we all know sexual impropriety, violation of boundaries, and abuse is a problem in the larger world as well as the Pagan community, however is there some aspect of the Pagan worldview that gives us exceptional tools to help the larger world deal with these issues? Can we take the attemp to address the internal issues discussed to today to aid our larger world?
16:51:24 From Xochiquetzal, SacredProfanity.com : I will be sure to ask them about that. Thank you for your question.
16:51:48 From Yeshe Rabbit : I was so shocked at how Pagan men treated me when I moved here from NYC. Most of my Pagan male friends there were gay, and I did not know what to expect.
16:52:00 From Mark Green : Oh, I remember when that happened. That was fucking awful.
16:52:13 From Vyviane : Boo on them!
16:52:15 From Laurie Lovekraft : Breathing in… breathing out…
16:53:11 From Magdalena Knight : Ohhhh yes.
16:53:22 From Yeshe Rabbit : I am so sorry that happened to you.
16:53:23 From River Devora and Rynn Fox : so much that. yes
16:55:00 From Heather Freysdottir : YES YES YES
16:55:16 From Shauna Aura Knight : Restriction = boundaries 🙂
16:55:17 From Jaina Bee : I’m feeling this deeply YES
16:55:31 From Magdalena Knight : So much belly resonance.
16:55:44 From Magdalena Knight : Outlaw! <3
16:55:46 From Cara Freyasdaughter : YES
16:56:20 From Heather Freysdottir : children are mirrors for all our best and worst traits
16:57:04 From Magdalena Knight : YES, a choice which feels really choice-like 🙂
16:59:56 From Heather Freysdottir : YAY SHAUNA
17:00:01 From Heather Freysdottir : *kermit arms*
17:00:04 From Laurie Lovekraft : Thank you so much LaSara
17:00:09 From Magdalena Knight : Totes kermit arms!!
17:00:13 From Yeshe Rabbit : Wonderful, Lasara
17:00:28 From Lasara Allen : to you too, laurie! <3
17:00:31 From Magdalena Knight : Absolutely, TY Lasara
17:00:46 From Laurie Lovekraft : Soooooooo much
17:00:53 From Barbara Cormack : Such strong statements from everyone!
17:01:00 From An Elder Apprentice : Another question: this is the last session in an event which touched many other topics. Does ‘consent culture’ and ‘sex positivity’ touch all the other aspects activism? How does sexuality inform all activism?
17:04:04 From Xochiquetzal, SacredProfanity.com : I remind our participants that questions can be directed PRIVATELY to me, in order to maintain anonymity around this sensitive topic.
17:04:30 From Mark Green : I’ve always felt that the “sex positive” term has often been conflated with “just go for it” in really ungrounded, irresponsible and disrespectful ways. Haven’t come up with a better one, however.
17:04:51 From Cara Freyasdaughter : yes, definitely.
17:05:00 From Dee Shull : Hm. Mark – would “consent positive” do as an alternate phrase?
17:05:02 From Barbara Cormack : Yes, Mark!
17:05:38 From Mark Green : I thought about that, Dee, but no, it doesn’t, because that implies ENCOURAGEMENT to consent.
17:05:46 From Dee Shull : Good point, thank you!
17:06:02 From Lasara Allen : i think sex+ is a good term, if people are willing to tie in consent as part and parcel to sex+.
17:06:11 From Yeshe Rabbit : yes
17:06:43 From Mark Green : Yes, but once you start in with conditions and caveats, you start to make a quick slogan more indeterminate in meaning.
17:07:21 From Lasara Allen : the kids are running with it on tumblr and youtube.
17:07:51 From Christine Kraemer : objectification
17:08:04 From Mark Green : The horse has left the barn in terms of the term, but I think it connotes meanings that aren’t optimal.
17:08:40 From Yeshe Rabbit : Not to mention that there is literally nothing sexy about the origins of the “slave auction”. It is blatantly sexist and racist, rooted in real history.
17:08:49 From Xochiquetzal, SacredProfanity.com : THAT.
17:08:54 From Mark Green : Yep.
17:08:57 From River Devora and Rynn Fox : YEP
17:08:58 From Yeshe Rabbit : I am really against that.
17:09:04 From Dee Shull : Agreed
17:09:50 From Cara Freyasdaughter : YES to Shauna’s last point especially
17:09:53 From Crystal Blanton : I am not for a damn slave auction under any circumstances. Wow…
17:09:59 From Yeshe Rabbit : Ever
17:10:00 From Vyviane : Can we name this festival? I don’t want to end up there, ever, for any reason.
17:10:13 From Yeshe Rabbit : PM Shauna?
17:10:15 From Mark Green : Oh, god, that “engage in mediation” thing. I’m still getting hammered on that one when I drew a boundary.
17:10:25 From Vyviane : Will do
17:11:21 From Laurie Lovekraft : Oh yeah!
17:11:28 From Mark Green : They literally believed that you checked your power to consent at the door of their “orgy cabin”? Holy christ on a cruller.
17:13:47 From Yeshe Rabbit : If you are not willing to talk about what you are doing, and are ashamed of it with your partner, it means you likely aren’t doing it appropriately, with consent.
17:14:28 From Keith V : Yes Yeshe!
17:14:33 From Dee Shull : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
17:14:42 From Crystal Blanton : yes yeshe!!!
17:14:47 From Yeshe Rabbit : Dee= thank you.
17:14:54 From Dee Shull : Very welcome.
17:14:59 From Yeshe Rabbit : That term is VERY IMPORTANT
17:15:16 From Yeshe Rabbit : If they did that to my husband, I would punch someone.
17:15:19 From River Devora and Rynn Fox : yup. ick.
17:15:49 From Magdalena Knight : URGH hugs from behind / the side. Reported & booted a guy from my energy group due to repeated offenses in ONLY public places (when there’s subtle social pressure for me to not be stiff about it)
17:17:24 From Yeshe Rabbit : I tend to bow ritualistically to avoid the mandatory Pagan hugging. It is actually hard on me to allow strangers near my body.
17:17:37 From River Devora and Rynn Fox : there’s also the issue of leaders who are so busy being “sex positive” they look the other way when there’s a predator in the group :/
17:17:49 From Yeshe Rabbit : Right
17:17:53 From Magdalena Knight : That’s a gracious answer, Yeshe.
17:17:58 From River Devora and Rynn Fox : I hear you, Rabbit. I like that, I may adopt that.
17:18:52 From Yeshe Rabbit : Prayer hands also mean “my body is closed to you”
17:19:41 From Cara Freyasdaughter : Nods
17:19:56 From River Devora and Rynn Fox : *nod* I’ve seen how much shaming and blaming got directed at Shauna. So not ok.
17:20:02 From Barbara Cormack : Good tactic, Rabbit.
17:20:15 From Magdalena Knight : There’s the geek fallacies at play. “We cannot ostracize because we too have been denied social spaces.”
17:20:26 From Dee Shull : Exactly Magdalena
17:20:31 From Christine Kraemer : “boundaries make predators stand out” — well put
17:22:41 From Mark Green : There is potential legal exposure for slander or libel, as well. That’s a real thing.
17:23:47 From Mark Green : Yep. Chop ’em off. What’s harder is when a leader provides cover for a predator. I saw that in CAW a lot.
17:24:01 From Laurie Lovekraft : Oh yes.
17:24:34 From An Elder Apprentice : I would have loved for this session to have had a male speaker too. The male perspective on this difficult issue would be interesting and perhaps important.
17:24:42 From Laurie Lovekraft : Mark, I’ve been thinking about that a lot during this call.
17:25:01 From Mark Green : Me, too, Laurie.
17:25:50 From Lasara Allen : i would love to mention the concept of “safety conversations” with our kids/youth if there’s a minute.
17:26:05 From Cara Freyasdaughter : Elder: yes, I agree
17:26:12 From River Devora and Rynn Fox : yes me too
17:26:15 From Crystal Blanton : yes
17:26:34 From Yeshe Rabbit : Seeing River and Crystal’s kids in the pictures gives me hope- real Pagan parents taking this on as a family.
17:26:41 From Lasara Allen : i agree – and often it’s who comes forward. You know?
17:27:02 From Cara Freyasdaughter : 🙂 Yeshe
17:27:07 From Lasara Allen : Also, I know that young men in our community also experienced predation as minors.
17:27:15 From Lasara Allen : both from/by men and women.
17:27:30 From Yeshe Rabbit : Anyone care to recommend a male who is an activist on this issue?
17:27:40 From Lasara Allen : charlie
17:27:43 From Yeshe Rabbit : Happy to keep on the list for next time
17:27:43 From Lasara Allen : glickman
17:27:50 From Crystal Blanton : yes!!!!
17:27:52 From Yeshe Rabbit : We did ask him but he could not come 🙁
17:27:53 From Dee Shull : Yes, Charlie glickman would be a good resource!
17:27:56 From Mark Green : It’s very late in the game, but I’m concerned that using the term “erotic” for non-sexual touch just makes this that much muddier. I would avoid it personally.
17:27:56 From Magdalena Knight : Charlies Glickman would be an amazing choice
17:28:04 From Lasara Allen : Oh! Next time I hope.
17:28:05 From Magdalena Knight : Also Bear Bergman
17:28:08 From Yeshe Rabbit : I hope so!
17:28:45 From Cara Freyasdaughter : Mark: I agree, especially when trying to explain/put into place discussions like these in large groups
17:29:33 From Mark Green : Yes–but that said it IS hard to draw hard points on a continuum spectrum, much as we need to do it.
17:29:57 From Yeshe Rabbit : I am writing an article on consent culture. If you’d like to contribute, here is a link to a questionnaire: http://goo.gl/forms/4jDE1KkdTj
17:30:03 From An Elder Apprentice : That no one should question the boundaries one puts around their own body. So important
17:31:14 From Jaina Bee : T T Baum is a wonderful sex educator/artist
17:31:26 From Jaina Bee : and a Pagan
17:31:46 From Yeshe Rabbit : Very good TY
17:32:02 From River Devora and Rynn Fox : as a parent of a very young child, I’m really interested in the list of bullet points you include in that conversation with your kids, LaSara…
17:32:13 From Heather Freysdottir : Lee Harrington might be a good fit
17:32:14 From Crystal Blanton : yes
17:33:26 From Magdalena Knight : Thought of Lee too
17:35:01 From River Devora and Rynn Fox : I wish we had another 30 min for this conversation…
17:35:08 From Magdalena Knight : Me three.
17:35:11 From Dee Shull : Agreed
17:35:12 From Mark Green : Me, too. This is far from over.
17:35:17 From Lasara Allen : me too!
17:35:21 From Cara Freyasdaughter : yep
17:35:24 From Barbara Cormack : Yep!
17:35:25 From Lasara Allen : I want to hear more from all of you
17:35:52 From Vyviane : Thank you for the added time Yeshe
17:35:57 From Magdalena Knight : Nods.
17:35:58 From Xochiquetzal, SacredProfanity.com : Again, I would remind you that if you have pressing questions, please direct them to me. Thank you.
17:35:59 From Barbara Cormack : Yes, thanks!
17:36:00 From Dee Shull : Yes, thank you Yeshe
17:36:06 From Laurie Lovekraft : Checking to see how long I can stay…
17:36:08 From Mark Green : Thank you, Yeshe.
17:37:05 From Shauna Aura Knight : For anyone who wants to talk more on these issues going forward from here, I frequently blog about these topics and I post about it on my FB wall, and if you need links to the blog posts, or to my FB, or anything else, just message me at ShaunaAura@gmail.com
17:37:20 From Lasara Allen : me too!
17:37:23 From River Devora and Rynn Fox : This: clearly labeling your ritual, so folks know in advance what they’re getting into, and can decide whether or not to attend, also.
17:37:32 From Lasara Allen : feel free to add me at fb. <3
17:38:05 From Shauna Aura Knight : Clearly labeling the ritual is so crucial so people can self select. It’s part of consent.
17:38:12 From Laurie Lovekraft : Friends, I have to go, family obligations. I have really enjoyed this so much. Thank you for the opportunity to share! Keep in touch! laurie@lovekraft.com xoxoxo
17:38:22 From Xochiquetzal, SacredProfanity.com : Thank you Laurie!
17:38:24 From Mark Green : Bye, Laurie!
17:38:25 From Vyviane : Thank you Laurie!
17:38:25 From Lasara Allen : love you!
17:38:28 From Barbara Cormack : Bye, thank you Laurie!
17:38:37 From Jaina Bee : thank you this is great information and ideas
17:38:57 From Lasara Allen : yes, naked. so important.
17:39:02 From Magdalena Knight : Yes. Yesyesyes Yeshe.
17:39:04 From Lasara Allen : owning our naked.
17:39:51 From Dee Shull : Okay, clear labels on your rituals – and please consider your language! As much as possible, please use respectful language when you are setting your boundaries, e.g. cisgender women, self-identified women, and so on.
17:40:04 From Lasara Allen : yes, Dee!
17:40:05 From Cara Freyasdaughter : great question!
17:40:19 From Lasara Allen : I word it “All women welcome.”
17:40:30 From Lasara Allen : (just me.)
17:40:33 From Heather Freysdottir : I like “all genders welcome”
17:40:36 From Shauna Aura Knight : Or “all genders” vs. “both genders”
17:40:44 From Lasara Allen : yes, all genders.
17:40:56 From Cara Freyasdaughter : good point, Yeshe
17:40:57 From Mark Green : I’d say we work to stamp out that “fantasy theme”. It’s a huge frickin’ problem. So long as we persist in this imaginary world that doesn’t have rules, but is about a gratifying fantasy, consent culture is *impossible*.
17:40:58 From Dee Shull : All genders, yes! *applause*
17:41:52 From Magdalena Knight : SO MUCH YES
17:41:58 From River Devora and Rynn Fox : YES, get out of the “fantasy” mindset. For me, my religion is *real*. This is all *real* stuff, not fantasy and role playing and make believe. There is a time and place for all that stuff, but for me, it’s not in my rituals.
17:42:05 From Mark Green : Gods as excuses for poor behavior is another HUGE topic that we cannot deal with here.
17:42:11 From Lasara Allen : agreed.
17:42:37 From Cara Freyasdaughter : preach it, Yeshe!
17:42:39 From Xochiquetzal, SacredProfanity.com : Taking a hardline. The Deities have to respect OUR boundaries, TOO.
17:42:47 From Dee Shull : Boundary setting is *also* incredibly useful with our Powers.
17:42:48 From Magdalena Knight : OMG thisssss
17:42:54 From Shauna Aura Knight : Yes, Dee
17:43:06 From Crystal Blanton : yes!!!
17:43:09 From An Elder Apprentice : Can’t because of time or we really ‘can’t’
17:43:14 From Mark Green : Yes, Yeshe.
17:43:25 From Lasara Allen : right on, all of that.
17:43:27 From Mark Green : Probably both, Elder.
17:43:31 From River Devora and Rynn Fox : yep. but we all get to decide how we live with those questions. Boundary setting with the Gods is important, true. But sometimes the gods have firm lines in teh sand about what they need as well, and then it’s on us to decide wether we can engage in that way or not.
17:44:03 From Xochiquetzal, SacredProfanity.com : That TOO.
17:44:09 From Dee Shull : Absolutely, River!
17:44:17 From Xochiquetzal, SacredProfanity.com : Just like we have them, They do too and we get to NEGOTIATE.
17:44:21 From Silence Maestas : It seems like if we can develop a culture where we don’t touch other people’s ritual tools without permission – even when we’re in the forest wearing silly costumes – that we can apply this same level of respect and courtesty to the bodies that belong to others.
17:44:29 From Xochiquetzal, SacredProfanity.com : My relationship with my G*dden is an ONGOING NEGOTIATION.
17:44:39 From Mark Green : Glad I don’t have to deal with them. 🙂
17:44:45 From Xochiquetzal, SacredProfanity.com : Hee.
17:45:15 From Heather Freysdottir : HUZZAH
17:45:17 From Magdalena Knight : My ancestors/guides/Goddess respect hardcore when I enforce my own sacred selfishness and defend it. Entering into Priestesshood was entering a “new league” of sophistication of boundaries, even with my Goddess. I love the terminology of professionalism.
17:45:18 From Dee Shull : In the cosplay community, they have a saying about costumes not being consent.
17:45:34 From Mark Green : That’s interesting, Dee.
17:45:43 From Cara Freyasdaughter : Magdalene: SO MUCH YES
17:46:01 From Lasara Allen : I love that that is coming up in cosplay culture.
17:46:11 From Lasara Allen : my younger kid is into that scene.
17:46:57 From Vicki : If someone breaches my consent, I don’t trust them after that.
17:47:18 From Mark Green : I think the “change mind on consent” issue is unavoidable. So much of what we’re talking about happens in private spaces, and turns into he said/she said.
17:47:25 From An Elder Apprentice : On cosplay I understand that there has been a lot of problems and thus a lot of work and maybe progress
17:47:36 From Syren Jill : Understanding where the consent ends… I may have consented to go to your house and have a drink and cuddle on the couch But that consent ends there. Consenting to one thing does not mean you’ve consented to everything.
17:47:46 From Dee Shull : YES Syren!
17:47:50 From Mark Green : Yes.
17:47:52 From Yeshe Rabbit : Right!
17:48:03 From Lasara Allen : “I think the “change mind on consent” issue is unavoidable. So much of what we’re talking about happens in private spaces, and turns into he said/she said.”being conned into consent is a really thing though.
17:48:13 From Lasara Allen : * a real thing
17:48:16 From Mark Green : No doubt about it.
17:48:19 From River Devora and Rynn Fox : ^^yes
17:48:34 From Heather Freysdottir : i know bodice rippers
17:48:36 From Lasara Allen : power and consent issues. obviously.
17:48:41 From Xochiquetzal, SacredProfanity.com : This is the bodice ripper formula.
17:48:56 From Mark Green : What I’m saying is that in some cases, at some point you have to decide who you believe. And that is necessarily problematic.
17:49:40 From Lasara Allen : yes it is. esp. when the dom. culture is weighted toward believing the male narrative.
17:49:43 From River Devora and Rynn Fox : …which is fine as a fantasy, even one that you negotiate to role play wiht a partner. But fantasy =/= reality. This should never happen without prior negotiation.
17:50:19 From Mark Green : I think that’s getting blurrier over the past few years.
17:50:20 From Cara Freyasdaughter : yep
17:50:22 From Dee Shull : One of the huge things, though, is that in many cases, a person who has been the target of some form of consent violation *has trouble* speaking up. If they speak up, then we need to at the very least listen to them and be willing to trust that they are speaking their truth.
17:50:28 From Heather Freysdottir : it doesn’tcount
17:50:38 From Magdalena Knight : Literary tropes is some juicy junk.
17:50:38 From Mark Green : It’s almost getting to the point where EVERYONE in the situation is trashed.
17:50:46 From Lasara Allen : true.
17:51:05 From Mark Green : I completely agree we need to listen. I’m just saying we need to be aware of the Uncertainty Principle.
17:51:12 From Lasara Allen : i just harken back the whole AWbW thing in CAW.
17:51:13 From Xochiquetzal, SacredProfanity.com : In situations about sex and dubiousness surrounding it, I truly think that that is going to happen. Regardless. 😕
17:51:29 From Lasara Allen : it took way too long to get that on the table.
17:51:39 From Mark Green : Yes, Lasara. And Daniel.
17:51:48 From Christine Kraemer : i find it useful to differentiation between manipulation, exploitation, and nonconsent. someone who has sex with a partner they think is a millionaire, and then he turns out to be a used car salesman — that’s manipulation, and it’s wrong, but it’s not nonconsent. someone who takes advantage of a partner’s vulnerability, like a person who says they will leave a marriage unless the partner gives them full control of the finances — that’s exploitation, but it doesn’t make the relationship nonconsensual. if there’s coercion, the consent is not informed, there’s a lack of competence, etc., that’s nonconsent.
17:51:50 From Mark Green : Yes, Xochi.
17:52:02 From Heather Freysdottir : Also the element of female power being bound up in the ability to attrach male sexual gaze
17:52:12 From Lasara Allen : I think the thing that might be a solution would be to believe the victim first.
17:52:21 From Heather Freysdottir : I was sopowerful he coun’t control himself
17:52:30 From Cara Freyasdaughter : heather: yes
17:52:53 From Crystal Blanton : yes it is!!!!!
17:53:03 From Christine Kraemer : i find we need many more words to describe sexual misconduct. otherwise we make overly broad generalizations and have difficulty choosing appropriate measures to correct the situation.
17:53:23 From Crystal Blanton : boundaries and reinforcing breached boundaries
17:53:24 From Cara Freyasdaughter : imho, i think the question of using sex and attraction as power as a women is something that needs to be brought up as well
17:53:24 From Magdalena Knight : A.HO. SO.MUCH.YES
17:53:43 From Heather Freysdottir : fuck yes Cara
17:53:50 From Barbara Cormack : Hells yes, Cara!
17:53:53 From Lasara Allen : Christine – yes.
17:53:56 From Crystal Blanton : which is one of the most challenging things to learn to do. How do we reinforce our boundaries when they are breached. This is very important things to cultivate in community.
17:54:11 From Lasara Allen : “i find we need many more words to describe sexual misconduct. otherwise we make overly broad generalizations and have difficulty choosing appropriate measures to correct the situation.”
17:54:25 From Lasara Allen : crystal – yes!
17:54:40 From Dee Shull : Very yes, Crystal!
17:55:07 From Lasara Allen : yes – crystal!!!
17:55:08 From Heather Freysdottir : i write in romance, and YES
17:55:17 From Magdalena Knight : I’m very interested in cultivating Gift of Fear classes. When someone’s impinging our aura / space / skin and IT FEELS CREEPY, we’re empowered to tell them to back off. And when they don’t? There’s a DIFFERENT dialog which arises to tell them how you NOTICE they don’t back off at the FIRST warning. It’s no longer accepting that they didn’t “understand” our soft no.
17:55:23 From Heather Freysdottir : romance readers have certain fantasies and expectations
17:55:39 From Yeshe Rabbit : I’m so glad you all said YES to this Conference 🙂
17:55:49 From Lasara Allen : I have a class I teach called “Making an Ally of Fear”
17:56:22 From Cara Freyasdaughter : YES
17:56:38 From Mark Green : That was great, Shauna.
17:56:48 From Crystal Blanton : Yes Lasara! That sounds like a great class.
17:57:03 From Heather Freysdottir : Aika: Also I’dsay no is either the catastrophic no as shaunasays or it is perceved as a “not right now” or “not until these things are met”
17:57:10 From Lasara Allen : “. It’s no longer accepting that they didn’t “understand” our soft no.” In the flirting workshops I used to teach I told people that if your friend needs to say “no” out loud, you have already ignored their nonverbal no.
17:57:25 From Mark Green : Good point.
17:57:35 From Cara Freyasdaughter : good point, Lasara
17:57:35 From Yeshe Rabbit : Lasara: YES THAT
17:57:40 From Crystal Blanton : This is such a fantastic conversation everyone. I am so grateful. I am so humbled to hear everyone talk about this. Thank you so much for doing this conversation. Thank you Thank you Thank you
17:57:43 From Dee Shull : Absolutely yes, Lasara.
17:58:07 From Yeshe Rabbit : Hekate, the Black Madonna, Aphrodite!
17:58:37 From River Devora and Rynn Fox : I think we can go to any of our gods and ask for support in this, for those of us who are working with Gods in that way. We don’t need to enlist a god we’re not already working with, IMHO
17:58:50 From An Elder Apprentice : This has been a wonderful session. The speakers and the chat discussion.
17:59:03 From Magdalena Knight : deep bow, to all.
17:59:03 From Mark Green : We don’t need to enlist a god/dess at ALL, River. Speaking for myself.
17:59:06 From Barbara Cormack : A grand finale!
17:59:11 From Lasara Allen : thank you ALL so very, very much.
17:59:15 From Yeshe Rabbit : TY 🙂
17:59:15 From River Devora and Rynn Fox : Yep agreed Mark.
17:59:21 From Mark Green : Thanks to everyone who participated here!
17:59:35 From Vyviane : Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, to everyone!
17:59:50 From River Devora and Rynn Fox : Blessings and thanks to the panelists and the participants! this has been very useful.
17:59:51 From Vyviane : This was a great and inspiring weekend and I am already looking forward to the next one.
17:59:55 From An Elder Apprentice : Good night all. And blessings.
17:59:55 From Cara Freyasdaughter : thanks everybody! big thanks to Xochi and Yeshe for organizing!
17:59:59 From Dee Shull : Many thanks to all who were here!
18:00:07 From Crystal Blanton : love u
18:00:11 From River Devora and Rynn Fox : Let’s all continue these conversations <3
18:00:22 From Barbara Cormack : _/|\_
18:00:26 From Shauna Aura Knight : Thank you everyone!
18:00:30 From Lasara Allen : yes!
18:00:32 From Rion Roberts : Thank you Rabbit. Thank you Xochi. Thank you everyone for your participation