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19:04:54 From Andy : she is fading in and out. Anyone else having a problem.
19:05:00 From Erica : a little yes
19:05:09 From Yeshe Rabbit : Yes, I asked her to speak slowly and that will help.
19:06:13 From Yeshe Rabbit : Compost: the gateway drug!
19:06:23 From Celia Alario : aha
19:07:37 From Janet Hayes : Welcome, Celia!
19:08:22 From Celia Alario : woooewee!
19:08:23 From Erica : 26 year…?
19:08:29 From Erica : couldn’t catch that
19:08:42 From Robin Grimm : member of Earth First
19:08:46 From Erica : ty
19:10:56 From Yeshe Rabbit : #sacredactivistroots
19:12:14 From Robin Grimm : i just came bak i was crashed
19:12:28 From Yeshe Rabbit : That screen share button can be tricky 🙂
19:12:36 From Rev Keith V. – Wiccan Church of Minnesota : It did it for me too.
19:13:11 From Yeshe Rabbit : Dharma Pagan 🙂
19:16:13 From Yeshe Rabbit : I’m wearing a ring made from a Mercury dime right now!
19:16:23 From Yeshe Rabbit : Io Herm 🙂
19:16:26 From Vicki : The dime actually has Liberty on it. You can tell by the hat.
19:17:16 From Yeshe Rabbit : Ahhh!
19:21:38 From laurielovekraft : Wow!
19:21:59 From Rev Keith V. – Wiccan Church of Minnesota : I am a bit jealous now.
19:22:12 From Yeshe Rabbit : I have some dirt from there 🙂
19:22:27 From laurielovekraft : Yeah!
19:23:15 From laurielovekraft : Earth First!’s motto is No compromise in defense of mother earth…
19:23:34 From Rev Keith V. – Wiccan Church of Minnesota : I like that.
19:23:54 From Vicki : Fighting the corporations that have stolen my government! Me too.
19:23:57 From Erica Shadowsong : question for later: wondering if these corporations make life hard for you and other activists individually? Retaliation
19:24:14 From Robin Grimm : yup
19:24:29 From laurielovekraft : Thanks Erica!
19:24:29 From Robin Grimm : yup to “the greed of the rich”
19:24:39 From Vicki : How much money does it take to hurt the rich corporations?
19:24:48 From Erica Shadowsong : right?
19:25:17 From Celia Alario : magic (and humor, and story, and values, and beliefs) are so much more powerful than money…
19:25:47 From Vicki : We need to make it more that just the “cost of doing business.”
19:25:48 From Yeshe Rabbit : Joy and community- true human values, are more valuable than any goods.
19:26:17 From Yeshe Rabbit : And all of the schwag is made in China
19:26:24 From Erica Shadowsong : badass pirate pagans
19:26:27 From Rev Keith V. – Wiccan Church of Minnesota : No bleeping. Speak from the heart Andy!
19:26:28 From laurielovekraft : Sacred scwhag
19:26:30 From Yeshe Rabbit : By people who are imprisoned at their jobs
19:27:21 From rhiannon : Ssssssss… hell yeah!!
19:27:23 From laurielovekraft : “If I can’t dance I don’t want to be part of your revolution”
19:27:30 From Celia Alario : a carnival of resistance
19:27:38 From Yeshe Rabbit : <3 Emma Goldman
19:27:44 From Yeshe Rabbit : Yes, Celia!
19:27:57 From Vicki : Look to Indigenous world view.
19:27:57 From laurielovekraft : Mistresses of Resitences!
19:28:21 From Erica Shadowsong : psss…come to the east coast pls
19:28:58 From laurielovekraft : <twinkle>
19:29:05 From Celia Alario : panels in our jambes!
19:29:16 From Celia Alario : jammies that is!
19:30:25 From rose : santy loves you
19:30:39 From laurielovekraft : Sorry all! Had to kiss my kiddos goodnight!
19:30:51 From Yeshe Rabbit : :-*
19:31:15 From Andy : I’ll be riking arrest with Santa and 40 people on black Friday.
19:31:31 From Andy : risking
19:31:51 From Janet Hayes : I hope you’ll share pics, please, Andy. 🙂
19:31:57 From Yeshe Rabbit : I watch you on FB do this all the time and you are seriously impressive, Andy.
19:32:14 From Vicki : Yes. Andy is impressive.
19:32:20 From Vicki : Thank you.
19:32:27 From laurielovekraft : <twinkle!>
19:35:13 From laurielovekraft : Thanks Rose MayDance, you were there too back then with Starhawk!
19:37:14 From Robin Grimm : Susu!
19:37:47 From Rev Keith V. – Wiccan Church of Minnesota : Susu is an amazing person!
19:37:52 From rose : at the full moon!
19:38:10 From laurielovekraft : Howwwwwllllllll!
19:38:45 From Yeshe Rabbit : Susu is an awesome woman.
19:38:48 From Vicki : fear. Toilets.
19:39:04 From rose : and that the fun part
19:39:53 From Andy : we bring pota potties.
19:45:07 From Mark Green : I have to ask: I’ve been active in environmental politics for more than 25 years, and I have yet to see street protest have a significant impact on ANYTHING. Why are we talking about street protests instead of grassroots organizing of voters, GOTV, lobbying presence and development and support of candidates? Honestly, I’m not seeing anything real here. I realize that’s harsh, but having accomplished things, that’s what I’m about, not symbolic gestures.
19:46:03 From laurielovekraft : Hi Mark, we’re still doing our introductions, but let’s definitely talk about this, thanks for bringing this up.
19:46:40 From Robin Grimm : Thanks Mark, I see your point and have thoughts about this too
19:46:40 From rose : despair is like weather
19:46:54 From Yeshe Rabbit : Hey folks, please mute when you aren’t speaking, thanks!
19:47:05 From Mark Green : Where’s the mute?!!
19:47:17 From Erica Shadowsong : microphone icon bottom left
19:47:20 From Yeshe Rabbit : Lower left corner, looks like a microphone
19:47:23 From Andy : Thasnk you Mark. I will be happy tro discount your work as well but I won’t. Street activism leads to open dialog and I’m not going to debate you here.
19:50:56 From Erica Shadowsong : I appreciate the reference a couple times to different people having a place in activism…it is encouraging
19:51:14 From laurielovekraft : <twinkle>
19:52:36 From Rev Keith V. – Wiccan Church of Minnesota : I think everyone has the niche and what they are comfortable with. There is room for all of us to do what we can, when we can, and how we can.
19:53:06 From Robin Grimm : yes Keith
19:53:12 From Yeshe Rabbit : Agreed!
19:53:52 From Rev Keith V. – Wiccan Church of Minnesota : Support small, locally owned companies when you can. 🙂
19:53:55 From Erica Shadowsong : Rev. Keith I feel like that kind of affirmation heard more often would help those of us who haven’t really mobilized yet. been sitting here thinking about how to answer the question raised by the panelists…why people who don’t show up don’t. I’m not sure I have the answer yet, even for myself, but something about that affirmation resonates with me
19:54:21 From Robin Grimm : that is so awesome!
19:54:35 From Yeshe Rabbit : I often teach my students: “Pray globally, priest/ess locally.”
19:55:14 From laurielovekraft : Please let me know if you have questions for the panelists, Erica, I have yours…
19:55:32 From Rhyd : I have one. 🙂
19:55:41 From Yeshe Rabbit : We start with simple things: one tree in a park, one public park…from there we can move up.
19:55:47 From crystal : It is when we do not work within our own strengths that we are apt to hurt our causes more than we can help them. Good point Yeshe Rabbit.
19:56:32 From Robin Grimm : symbolism is important
19:56:33 From Rev Keith V. – Wiccan Church of Minnesota : Everyone has their comfort zone. Some can just jump in. Some need to put a toe in first. I think we all have fear of what can happen to us or our families because of our actions. We can not demand people to go beyond, but we can encourage and help them if they want. Even helping behind the scenes if you cannot or will not be out in public.
19:57:04 From Yeshe Rabbit : YES- starting from our own centers, rather than trying to find our place in someone else’s center
19:57:23 From Shauna Aura Knight : One thing I’m always interested in is helping others (and myself) find ways to plug in as activists in ways that fit our abilities, talents, and availabilities. I find that lots of people have that hopelessness and despair, “What I do won’t matter,” or, “I can’t go out to a protest, so what can I do? Why bother?” Perhaps it’s too big of a question for today, but I wonder if it’s possible to gather more ways for people to be activists in ways that play to their strengths. I’d love to hear more ideas for this.
19:57:51 From Yeshe Rabbit : Oooh, Shauna! YES
19:58:07 From Robin Grimm : i want a thumbs up button here 🙂
19:58:08 From Erica Shadowsong : yes I definitely think this is the beginning of a good next step…?
19:58:08 From Rev Keith V. – Wiccan Church of Minnesota : Perhaps a pannel for the next conference?
19:58:22 From Yeshe Rabbit : Great idea- noted!
19:58:53 From Robin Grimm : Shauna let’s do a panel about that at Paganicon 🙂
19:59:11 From Rev Keith V. – Wiccan Church of Minnesota : Programming is taking requests.
19:59:54 From Shauna Aura Knight : I know that one of the rules of thumb for engaging volunteers is, ask them to do something specific. But I often don’t know what to ask people to do. Maybe we can get ideas from all the panelists (and participants) of PACO and put out some articles/blog posts/resources. 😀
20:00:02 From Erica Shadowsong : for programming: I wanna leave with an assignment. 🙂 “everyone do this one thing” for example…for those of us babies…that is someting I can take to my world and my social circles…etc
20:00:37 From Yeshe Rabbit : In CAYA, we ask people to find their joyful service- what would give you joy to do? What would make you happy if you could succeed with it?
20:00:40 From rose : and also the state of callifornia.
20:01:44 From crystal : I think finding what calls to you is key.
20:01:45 From Celia Alario : happy to share resources and readings…. Starhawk’s writing is the place to start I’d say
20:01:47 From laurielovekraft : 3 Days of Rage
20:02:20 From laurielovekraft : Stock drop
20:02:23 From Yeshe Rabbit : The Foundation does have a follow-up blog project for PACO- this will be emailed to you next week and there will definitely be opportunities for folks to do just what Shauna is suggesting.
20:02:36 From Erica Shadowsong : yeah and everyone knows who they are now too…few years ago I never herd of Monsanto
20:02:57 From Erica Shadowsong : *heard
20:03:39 From Shauna Aura Knight : Awesome, that will be a tremendous resource Yeshe!
20:04:00 From Mark Green : Well, I would. My perspective is my own, and others may not share it, but I’m a very, very practical, pragmatic person. And so what I care about is outcomes, and the outcomes that are accomplished are made by those in a position to make policy. To the degree that we Raise Our Fists To The Man and dismiss all policy makers as whores and shills, we squander the relationships that can actually lead to progress. I see the fringe left–and I think the Pagan community writ large chooses that designation–as **opting** to be marginalized in this way, when we have articulate and smart people who could be far more effective wearing suits and meeting with officials than blowing whistles and carrying effigies.
20:04:10 From Yeshe Rabbit : We all need each other in this. We are so much stronger when we work together and share best practices.
20:04:27 From Mark Green : Street protest was a valuable tactic when the media covered it. They don’t. It no longer is.
20:04:33 From Celia Alario : read Gandhi and MLK (seriously) and Doris Day’s biography
20:04:48 From Celia Alario : i also recommend the MAP method of community organizing Bill Moyer
20:05:01 From Celia Alario : also waging nonviolence is a great portal for blogs and writings
20:05:03 From Celia Alario : my blog is fun, but not overly pagan or hard core www.spiritualityandhealth.com/blogs/celia-alario-0
20:05:04 From Mark Green : This isn’t India. And it isn’t 1930.
20:05:11 From Yeshe Rabbit : Mark, where do you turn your actions and energies?
20:05:32 From Mark Green : You, too, Andy! Love to you.
20:05:43 From John Medellin : There is a viable alternative media through various online channels and that is largely how street protesting has retained its relevance.
20:06:04 From Mark Green : To policy development, voter organizing and education, get out the vote, candidate development, and lobbying.
20:06:35 From Yeshe Rabbit : John- I agree. I feel like my generation really turns the wheel to online activism as a primary work. My 18-yr-old niece is really much more skillful at it than I am.
20:06:59 From Erica Shadowsong : Starhawk and panelists, I think my question about retaliation comes from watching perhaps one too many documentaries. they always have these horror stories about people getting harrassed on their land, or sued, or event threatened. it’s terrifying. perhaps the attempt to make the storytelling hit home is doing some harm instead of good?
20:07:01 From Rev Keith V. – Wiccan Church of Minnesota : But with street protests now we have cameras and streaming video options. The word can get out to more people via social media than many news outlets. Make the videos go viral.
20:07:32 From Andy : Love you too my brother.
20:07:54 From Yeshe Rabbit : Mark- that sounds like it would be great fodder for an article for the Journal of Pagan Activism Studies we will be putting together next year. Efficacy measurements, layered action in different start of the power scheme.
20:08:10 From laurielovekraft : Mark, I totally agree that we need to do policy development, voter organizing and education, get out the vote, candidate development, and lobbying. But not everyone can do that or wants to do that. But people need to see that as a viable option. I for one have a suit and I’m not afraid to wear it (and do)!
20:08:17 From Celia Alario : i live in utah
20:08:18 From Robin Grimm : I too am horrified when people don’t vote.
20:08:19 From Celia Alario : i do lobby
20:08:27 From Celia Alario : my electeds want to pray with me.. i do
20:08:30 From Mark Green : Laurie 🙂
20:08:45 From Celia Alario : i don’t guess we are praying to the same folks…. but heck i’ll do a spell before we talk shop
20:08:46 From laurielovekraft : But I *hate* pantyhose! yuck!
20:08:51 From Yeshe Rabbit : Gives whole new meaning to the term “Suit up!”
20:09:04 From Robin Grimm : “it doesn’t work anyway” /whine. The heck it doesn’t! Why would “they” be trying to suppress it?
20:09:13 From laurielovekraft : We need people who can walk between the worlds…
20:09:20 From Mark Green : I also think we need to be clear about our own separation of church and state. We’re a minority–that means our religion needs to run in the background when we advocate to those who don’t share it.
20:09:35 From Robin Grimm : that’s how i work Mark
20:09:47 From Mark Green : Robin 🙂
20:09:57 From Andy : When you have to get to an action in September at 4.00 am pantyhose or tights rule.
20:10:12 From Mark Green : Oh, I’m pantyhose all the way, Andy.
20:10:17 From Yeshe Rabbit : HH Dalai Lama’s book “Beyond Religion” explains how to do that well- to move beyond the things that limit connection.
20:10:37 From Yeshe Rabbit : To place Ethics common to the good of all before religion in certain cases.
20:10:56 From Yeshe Rabbit : Great question.
20:11:58 From Mark Green : I also think that it is *very, very dangerous* to fall into messaianic paranoia as activists. It is very dangerous to tell ourselves that we are Doing The Work Of The Gods. We’re just critters, and we care about something, and so we’re trying to do something about it. No, the CIA couldn’t care less about this conference. Really, they couldn’t.
20:12:05 From laurielovekraft : Interfaith coalitions… but how many of them are afraid of Pagans… 🙁
20:12:24 From laurielovekraft : Oh, that was really just a joke about the CIA…
20:12:43 From laurielovekraft : … it’s really the NSA (again a joke, a joke!)
20:12:54 From crystal : Mark, I don’t agree. I think some of us feel a calling to this work because it is the work of the Gods.
20:12:59 From Mark Green : Laurie 😀
20:13:04 From rhyd : Thank you, Crystal.
20:13:41 From Yeshe Rabbit : I’d like to ask the panel about their thoughts on environmental racism…i.e. cities with no recycling or composting in inner cities or areas where there are many POC. Or dumping nuclear chemicals near indigenous lands and communities.
20:13:42 From Mark Green : You may FEEL that, but that doesn’t mean it gives you a moral cachet.
20:14:00 From John Beckett : I wouldn’t bother if it wasn’t for the call of the Gods.
20:14:31 From crystal : I think that is rather dismissive Mark to the ways that people come to the table to do this work.
20:14:39 From rhyd : John ‘F’ Beckett.. 🙂
20:14:55 From Yeshe Rabbit : For those of us dedicated to the Earth as Goddess, this is more than a feeling. It’s a decision.
20:15:31 From Erica Shadowsong : Celia: DO pagans typically reach out into interfaith work in your experience, or do you find that’s part of the problem, pagans prefering to be isolated ?
20:15:31 From Mark Green : No, it isn’t dismissive. It’s realistic. People need not to kid themselves, and they need not to take on airs. If we want to talk about Gandhi, we need to talk about humility. Telling yourself that you are the exponent of divinity as a rationale for your politics is the antithesis of that.
20:15:54 From crystal : Yes Yeshe Rabbit… and also not a choice. It is something that we are tasked to do.
20:16:11 From Mark Green : Do it because it’s right, not because it makes you feel good about yourself.
20:16:43 From crystal : Who said that it has anything to do with making myself feel better. The type of activism I do does not feel good. Not at all actually.
20:16:46 From Syren Jill : Anyone that gets into this work expecting to “feel good” is going to burn out very quickly
20:16:59 From John Medellin : I think that the fear in claiming that the Gods call us to our work is that we have seen so much violence and suffering come from this in other religions (which shall remain unnamed), but I think that we can claim this rationally and with heart if we understand that we are called to do what we value because our Gods would do the same, not necessarily because XDeity told me it has to be this way not matter what.
20:16:59 From Rev Keith V. – Wiccan Church of Minnesota : So Mark, are you saying your work doesn’t make you feel good about yourself?
20:17:02 From Yeshe Rabbit : Yes, Jill
20:17:26 From Rev Keith V. – Wiccan Church of Minnesota : It can be right and make you feel good about yourself.
20:17:52 From Mark Green : I’m talking about self-congratulation. and no, Keith, it doesn’t. Not any more. It’s just what has to be done. What feels good is the progress. The actual achievements. And that’s not about me, it’s about the future of the world.
20:18:03 From Celia Alario : whatever calls you to action, heed that call, find inspiration and will to do something….anything….
20:18:28 From John Medellin : After all, perhaps with some bad luck to say the least, I CAN say NO.
20:18:55 From Rev Keith V. – Wiccan Church of Minnesota : Yes Celia. Yes…
20:19:00 From Yeshe Rabbit : I think that the future of the world depends on diversity, not a single perspective. Biodiversity and its lack, and the effects of that, show us evidence for this.
20:19:00 From Mark Green : I agree that whatever spurs activism is a good thing. But my hope is that activism will be focused on what actually works, and not wasted on action that may feel satisfying, but at which the powers that be just laugh.
20:19:13 From Erica Shadowsong : mark’s points don’t strike me as contrary to anything we’re all saying, other than coming from a different direction/paradigm/language. I don’t see a problem with the diferent approaches unless they end up being vehicles for division, personally
20:19:26 From Mark Green : Thanks, Erica.
20:19:40 From Celia Alario : we don’t really know for sure “What works” and we need to do multiple things at once
20:20:01 From crystal : Right Celia. Because what “works” is often subjective.
20:20:02 From Mark Green : I know that policies are made by policy makers. Getting their support is what works.
20:20:22 From laurielovekraft : Earth Activist Trainings
20:20:31 From Celia Alario : Policy change is not the only way things improve. we all have theories of change, and it all matters.
20:20:34 From Erica Shadowsong : Mark np…only thing I want from people with your paradigm who share the same goals is to be valued and not shamed, which I would find discouraging. but I suspect you would not be here if you really were coming from there if I may
20:20:34 From Syren Jill : Yes, and echoing Yeshe’s comment about biodiversity… its not a binary, there is no single right/wrong.
20:20:39 From Vicki : We can also become policy makers.
20:20:43 From Mark Green : If you don’t want a forest cut down, the people who have decision-making power over that are the message target. And if they don’t care about people in the street, they just don’t.
20:20:44 From Rev Keith V. – Wiccan Church of Minnesota : Erica, me either. The goals are the same, the means are different. Mark is very pationate about this and that is easy to see. I am just trying to get a fuller view of where he is coming from because it is not where I come from.
20:20:53 From Yeshe Rabbit : I also think that creating rubrics and objective measurables for non-policy action would yield useful data for our widespread planning purposes.
20:20:54 From Janet Hayes : Mark, I think I share some of your frustration, having worked professionally on a range of social justice issues for the Unitarian Universalist Association for 10 years. I’m not eager to organize another rally myself, although I support people who choose to to put their efforts into direct action. I wonder what role you (and others) believe spirituality has in activism? How do these work together for you, if they do?
20:21:59 From Mark Green : Janet, that’s a long conversation. I’m an Atheopagan: an Earth-honoring atheist. I do not believe in gods or the supernatural. My spirituality is the magnificence of the Universe and the biosphere. I serve what I love.
20:22:14 From crystal : Policies are not the only measure of what is working.
20:22:19 From Celia Alario : part of what “works” is when we create our own solutions even beyond what policy makers will legislate… food supply, alternative transportation, community supported programs, etc all happen and “work” and make change even when policy makers don’t prioritize it
20:22:41 From Mark Green : I agree, Celia, but public policy still drives the bus.
20:23:01 From Rev Keith V. – Wiccan Church of Minnesota : Now we need to get that bus running on bio fuel!
20:23:01 From crystal : Thank you Starhawk to speaking to this. There is a huge piece of this that is structured differently for marginalized communities
20:23:06 From Celia Alario : this is not a competition about which type of work is better than others….
20:23:16 From Erica Shadowsong : *twinkle* celia
20:23:18 From crystal : Mark, that is not accurate for many communities.
20:23:23 From Yeshe Rabbit : Yes Crystal
20:23:32 From Janet Hayes : I’m a spiritual naturalist as well. One focus for me is the long game. So, for example, teaching kids about the environment in a religious education context, especially as the secular ed is lacking in most schools.
20:23:52 From Mark Green : Exactly, Janet.
20:24:56 From Robin Grimm : Something I would like to talk about at some point is culture change. How do we, and in what direction do we want to be going
20:25:02 From laurielovekraft : Thank you all for the work that you are doing in (and for) the world.
20:25:14 From Mark Green : And you, Laurie.
20:25:41 From Yeshe Rabbit : Robin- I love that.
20:26:00 From Erica Shadowsong : Robin, my short answer: handholding
20:26:23 From Erica Shadowsong : honestly no joke. that’s what I think someone like me would need. the equivalent of seeing someone do it so I’d know how
20:26:27 From Erica Shadowsong : have not had that in my life
20:26:59 From Robin Grimm : Erica, ok cool. and what i’m aiming at also is broader than activism culture
20:27:04 From Mark Green : What keeps me hopeful is that people have persisted through hundreds of thousands of years, and it appears to be our particular evolutionary trick. Good surprises happen. Obama was a surprise. FDR was a surprise.
20:27:23 From Erica Shadowsong : (sorry lol having trouble keeping up with the chat window)
20:27:58 From Mark Green : And in the meantime, I work to create common ground with like-minded people. I’ve founded an Atheopagan group on Facebook that is a wonderful place for conversation and collaboration. It’s joyous.
20:28:11 From Robin Grimm : the chat window is a bit distracting . . .
20:28:35 From Erica Shadowsong : celia thank you for that story…that is a great story. good way to end
20:28:51 From Yeshe Rabbit : Robin, if you minimize the window, the chat should just scroll past but you don’t have to have it jumping in your face 🙂
20:29:05 From Robin Grimm : fear of missing something!
20:29:12 From Robin Grimm : 😉
20:29:20 From Yeshe Rabbit : lol can’t help that myself!
20:29:39 From Janet Hayes : Celia, you have a gift. 🙂
20:29:52 From Robin Grimm : she really does
20:30:02 From rose : celia you rock, love rose may dance.
20:30:04 From laurielovekraft : Gotta Love Celia Alario! Woot!
20:30:07 From Celia Alario : I too have FOMO Robin, fear of missing out
20:30:16 From laurielovekraft : Yay Rose May Dance!
20:31:01 From Yeshe Rabbit : Then she rescues herself!
20:31:03 From rose : we are in the middle of the middle of the end of the great turning
20:31:06 From laurielovekraft : This is a great moment to be alive!
20:31:18 From laurielovekraft : … and we rescue ourselves!
20:31:32 From Celia Alario : when we are doing magic we are between the worlds eeh? and what happens between the worlds can change ALL the worlds
20:31:35 From Celia Alario : even dc
20:31:36 From Celia Alario : ha ha
20:32:06 From Erica Shadowsong : THANK YOU
20:32:14 From Syren Jill : woot!