Pagan LGBTQI and Gender Activism

Pagan LGBTQI and Gender Activism
Speaking: Elena Rose (Activist for Gender & Racial Empowerment), Lou Flores (Gay Pagan Conjure Worker), and P Sufenas Virius Lupus (Metagender Scholar & Activist)

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Chat Text:

14:04:54     From Elena Rose : Delightful typo, Doctor!
14:05:14     From P. Sufenas Virius Lupus : That was autocorrect, alas…didn’t catch it!
14:05:33     From P. Sufenas Virius Lupus : should be eir and eirs
14:06:36     From Yeshe Rabbit : Yeshe: she, her, hers, herself
14:08:27     From Xochiquetzal, : All the words! 😀
14:08:37     From Magdalena : SO MANY 🙂
14:08:46     From Elena Rose : I tried to keep mine simple!
14:08:51     From Magdalena : My bibliophile, it swells.
14:09:24     From Vyviane : Vyviane: Anything is good 🙂
14:10:20     From laurielovekraft : Greetings from Los Angeles, really looking forward to this!
14:10:30     From Magdalena : likewise laurie!
14:14:50     From Dee Shull : I would also note that the Dineh (Navajo) have four distinct genders.
14:15:25     From Magdalena : Incredibly fraught with tense feelings
14:15:29     From Magdalena : across culture lines
14:16:56     From rhyd : it’s muted. 🙂
14:18:51     From Rev Keith V, Wiccan Church of Minnesota : Yes LOVE!
14:19:55     From Erica Shadowsong : a little hard to hear
14:20:06     From Robin Grimm, Minneapolis : yup
14:20:07     From Erica Shadowsong : ty
14:20:08     From Rev Keith V, Wiccan Church of Minnesota : The sound is robotic.
14:20:19     From Yeshe Rabbit : I’m working on it!
14:20:23     From Elena Rose : There is some distortion—it may just be an equipment issue.
14:20:30     From Yeshe Rabbit : Part of it is just Lou’s connection
14:21:13     From Rev Keith V, Wiccan Church of Minnesota : Are there more than one mic in Lou’s room?  Sounds like a local area feedback loop.
14:21:16     From Yeshe Rabbit : I have optimized as much as I know how, and asked Lou to speak slowly and loudly to combat the tech issue.
14:21:40     From Yeshe Rabbit : He has just one mic, but this is an issue of his connection, unfortunately.
14:21:56     From River Devora : Even the romans wrote disparagingly about how some of the germanic “barbarians” enacted gender and sexuality.
14:22:16     From P. Sufenas Virius Lupus : They also wrote about the Gauls/Celts that way…
14:23:15     From Elena Rose : Yes indeed!  And there is Germanic language about this diversity that’s also been erased/degraded.
14:26:38     From Elena Rose : The word “bad,” a lot of scholars argue, comes from “baeddel,” an old Germanic word for, depending on your translator, a feminine person assigned male, or “female creature with a penis.”  And then negative attitudes toward those people stretched that word to mean the opposite of good in our language—much as “travesty” comes from language about crossdressing.  Our hatred of this stuff and these people isn’t timeless, it’s built.
14:27:43     From Vyviane : Thanks Lou!
14:27:51     From Rev Keith V, Wiccan Church of Minnesota : Thank you Lou!
14:28:01     From Elena Rose : Lou is so consistently brilliant.
14:28:04     From Magdalena : So much twinkle fingers!  Lou, could I get those slides via email?
14:29:22     From Yeshe Rabbit : I will ask Lou is he is wiling to share his slides for u to post to the PF website- I think quite a few of us would like them!
14:29:40     From Magdalena : Indeed!  Great idea 🙂
14:30:41     From River Devora : I do want to point out the difference between gender “role” and gender “identity” – how we enact/perform gender vs. how we see and understand ourselves
14:31:06     From Magdalena : River, I’ve got a whole essay to write about how the term “gender” almost demands a modifier
14:32:06     From Elena Rose : Well, and “biological sex” is a cultural thing, too!  Our interpretive frameworks for understanding biology are culturally situated, too.
14:32:08     From Magdalena : Because identity exists on a spectrum, it’s inherently fluid, and how we’re seen outside our skin is often at disparity from what we experience insides
14:35:25     From Dee Shull : Identity is not simply (one aspect) + (one aspect) + (one aspect) and so on – identity is very much a whole that is much greater than the sum of its parts.
14:36:21     From Magdalena : That too! A confluence of so many factors
14:37:13     From River Devora : YES
14:38:37     From River Devora : this is why
14:38:46     From Yeshe Rabbit : In CAYA we use Priest/ess, Priestess and Priest
14:38:52     From River Devora : i default to priest
14:39:02     From River Devora : for myself
14:39:14     From Lou Florez : soverignty
14:39:18     From Shauna Aura Knight : Just using the phrase “all genders are welcome” at some of my public rituals really opened up the space. A number of people asked, “There are more than two? Huh?” and that became an opportunity to talk about it. And a number of trans folks spoke to me privately and said that they had never felt safe coming to rituals til they were expressly welcomed like that.
14:39:35     From Jaina Bee : right on
14:39:43     From Vyviane : Thank you P. Sufenas!
14:39:49     From Magdalena : I also appreciate GF/GN terms like shaman sorcerer mystic
14:39:52     From Xochiquetzal, : I just like to say that I am Regent. 😛
14:40:00     From Magdalena : Regent is sexy.  /twinkle fingers.
14:40:30     From Xochiquetzal, : TY
14:40:47     From Yeshe Rabbit : Shaman originates in Eurasia, and is actually gender feminine in its language of origin
14:42:17     From Dee Shull : That is the origin of “shaman” – but since it originates within a specific practice, my preference is to not use that particular term (even if it applies to me!).
14:42:25     From Magdalena : My magickal and life partner qualifies by today’s standards as two-spirit, and practices Anishinaabe Native American Traditions.  I totally appreciate the appropriation of the term.
14:42:25     From Robin Lasirena : At Reclaiming’s Spiral Dance earlier this month, someone wrote a song that was an invocation to Deyi, their term for a non-gendered deity. We also changed our Principles of Unity a few years ago to include the worship of “Mysterious Ones”, for non gender specific deity.
14:43:09     From Shauna Aura Knight : I would love a gender neutral term that works for Priest/ess. Minister or Reverend just seems too clinical. Witch is tradition specific, Druid is tradition specific, shaman would work in how it’s used anthropologically but it is appropriated.
14:43:36     From Syren Jill : I have used the term Celebrant
14:43:43     From Lou Florez : I think its up to us to make it up!
14:43:46     From Rev Keith V, Wiccan Church of Minnesota : Shauna – Wise One?
14:44:05     From Robin Lasirena : Facilitator
14:44:05     From Yeshe Rabbit : Wisdom is demonstrated, not automatic, though.
14:44:23     From Yeshe Rabbit : I think this may touch on why Thorn Coyle uses “Magic Worker”
14:44:40     From John Medellin, Pantheon Foundation : Practitioner
14:45:25     From Dee Shull : And how does one differentiate the leader of a group in social structures, and one who leads magical practices? Different forms of leadership may require different words to identify them.
14:45:40     From Shauna Aura Knight : Dee–yes!
14:46:36     From Yeshe Rabbit : But those institutions are patriarchal in nature
14:46:38     From Magdalena : Given that many of the arcane terms were migrated from their culturally- & contextually- understood container, it feels reclaimy to utilize Witch, Mage, Guru, Sorcerer… the ending in -er is culturally understood as masculine, but doesn’t have to stay there.  I
14:46:45     From Jaina Bee : there ain’t no one size fits all or one title fits all
14:47:03     From Dee Shull : Jaina, hear hear!
14:47:05     From Magdalena : It also depends on whether we’re addressing an Elder corporeally or a Deity / Enlightened one
14:47:18     From Rev Keith V, Wiccan Church of Minnesota : One term for all of us… Human.  🙂
14:47:27     From Magdalena : Mere mortals 🙂
14:47:54     From rhyd : I have a question for whenever.  I’d made the assertion in a Wild Hunt article that much Paganisms gender difficulties hinge upon the gender essentialism of the Wiccan God & Goddess/ Lord&Lady.  Besides not fitting into a polytheist framework (which god? which goddess?) I suspect it influences much of the way Pagans think of Male/Female.  I’m curious what the panelists think of the influence of this on speaking of gender issues within Paganism.
14:47:54     From P. Sufenas Virius Lupus : But beware, Keith, in how that can marginalize those who are different in an attempt to paint everyone with the same brush…
14:48:27     From Yeshe Rabbit : Right- honoring commonality without erasure of specificity can be tricky
14:48:58     From Rev Keith V, Wiccan Church of Minnesota : Not marginalizing anyone.  None of us are better than the other.  But I get what you are saying.
14:49:25     From Robin Lasirena : well said, Rabbit
14:50:59     From John Medellin, Pantheon Foundation : Rhyd, I think those influences are more internalized than any of us realize a lot of the time. I didn’t realize until some time after I left Wicca, for example, how much of it I had missed because I simply wasn’t heterosexul and just didn’t think in the mental framework that was the sort of “default” required to work with that tradition.
14:51:19     From Xochiquetzal, : Even me! 😀
14:52:14     From River Devora : YES Lupus… me too.
14:52:55     From Xochiquetzal, : Yessssssss.
14:53:30     From Xochiquetzal, : Affinity space requires people to actually pay attention to whom the affinity actually belongs to. If it’s not YOU and you want to be supportive, then be there and be supportive. 🙂
14:53:59     From Shauna Aura Knight : I have never considered myself Wiccan, however, I have found myself bound into the polarity/binary traditions that carry over from the Wiccan binary that’s woven through the broader Pagan community. It’s taken a lot of work on my part to unravel my own assumptions around this, and I still find myself thinking in those terms all the time when I’m on autopilot.
14:54:40     From John Medellin, Pantheon Foundation : ^Yeah that’s kind of what I mean.
14:54:43     From Yeshe Rabbit : It is very important to create spaces where marginalized peoples each get to hold the center of their own narrative and experience. For many, only when we all feel “enoughness” for our own needs do we feel generous enough to give space, power, and respect to others.
14:55:06     From Yeshe Rabbit : But then, we need to act from our enoughness, to give from that enoughness without fear.
14:55:54     From Magdalena : Attraction / resonance and aversion…
14:55:59     From River Devora : I think some of the question also becomes, what’s the purpose of the space? Is this an “empowerment” space? a place to look at your own stuff? Does identity factor into this in a primary way? or is this a devotional space? These are not necessarily all the same things…
14:56:09     From Vyviane : I like that word “enoughness”
14:56:11     From Yeshe Rabbit : Exactly
14:56:17     From Bethie : Something I would like to bring up: In the last few years we have seen the women’s mysteries groups open-up to “self-identified” women. But I have not seen the same for gender-fluid or “self-identified” men for the men’s mysteries. Thoughts?
14:56:23     From Robin Lasirena : Part of the challenge for allies is how to hold space for/allow/hear someone else’s pain and anger without reacting personally.
14:56:41     From Magdalena : I believe we don’t recruit by prosthetizing.  A belief in the addiction community (the one with steps. twelve of them.) believe “attraction rather than promotion”
14:56:44     From Xochiquetzal, : It’s an interesting point because men’s mysteries tend to NOT have the same gender essentialist issues…
14:56:46     From P. Sufenas Virius Lupus : Bethie, that might be a good one to have several of us discuss…
14:57:22     From Yeshe Rabbit : Xochi- unpack that a little further?
14:58:25     From River Devora : I know for me, part of why I got more involved in culturally specific traditions is because then the focus was more on engaging with the Gods, Ancestors and the Land rather than on dual-gendered deity and personal or group psychology.
14:58:29     From Xochiquetzal, : So, one of the things I saw at a major pagan conference was that there wasn’t the standard of “gender checking” in the women’s only rituals. The men’s only pretty let anyone who ID’d as male in. It was an interesting thing to hear about from people who attended (In the interest of full disclosure: I did NOT attend, but I heard from people who did.)
14:58:49     From Xochiquetzal, : Ack, I wrote that first sentence WRONG.
14:59:05     From Xochiquetzal, : There wasn’t a standard of gender checking in MEN’S only rituals.
14:59:23     From River Devora : Xochi – I think it depends on where you are…
14:59:50     From Bethie : I have tried reaching out to men’s groups and I have been told I cannot attend their male-only rituals.
14:59:55     From Yeshe Rabbit : Yeah, I see the Robert Bly-inspired men’s groups as VERY essentialist
15:00:08     From Xochiquetzal, : Yes. It was definitely a situation specific thing, I don’t know that it’s necessarily the same across all locations.
15:00:18     From Bethie : Although cis-female, I very much feel more male than female inside.
15:00:41     From Shauna Aura Knight : There’s a gay men’s group in Chicago that specifies they are for gay, bisexual, and transgender men who love men.
15:01:09     From Dee Shull : There may also be an issue where male-ness is considered the default in our culture, and the approved form of how we’re supposed to “do” gender.
15:01:21     From Bethie : Thank you, Doctor!
15:02:59     From Yeshe Rabbit : In a way, all rites are coming-of-age rites in that they carry you over a threshold.
15:03:11     From River Devora : Yes!
15:03:13     From Robin Grimm, Minneapolis : who let the dogs in?
15:03:18     From Yeshe Rabbit : Just coming-of-age into experience, rather than a category
15:03:18     From Erica Shadowsong : lol
15:03:30     From Robin Grimm, Minneapolis : 😉
15:03:32     From Magdalena : I like that, Yeshe!
15:03:47     From Dee Shull : Rituals to recognize transitions from one state to another.
15:03:58     From Yeshe Rabbit : Fluidity
15:04:10     From Yeshe Rabbit : requires movement
15:04:19     From Yeshe Rabbit : Ritual is the acknowledgement of movement
15:04:23     From Magdalena : Our culture has relatively lost a whole lotta observation of marking significant events, ritualized rites of passage
15:04:37     From Magdalena : I like that Yeshe
15:05:14     From P. Sufenas Virius Lupus : Sorry, Robin-can’t do anything about it.
15:05:17     From Jaina Bee : how does my personal identity serve for the benefit of all beings? or at least for others?
15:05:47     From Robin Grimm, Minneapolis : Doctor, I’m appreciating with amusement
15:06:35     From Bethie : YES!
15:07:45     From Yeshe Rabbit : #oscillationsinthevoid are what bring abut the necessary friction to bring something from pure energy into physical being
15:08:13     From Magdalena : Dropping crumbs for our soul in the wilderness.  Loving that, too, Yeshe.
15:08:19     From Magdalena : Liminality is what we’re all after, right?
15:08:39     From P. Sufenas Virius Lupus : Really great image, Elena…
15:08:46     From Syren Jill : Yes, loving that too Yeshe, just had that vision in my mind
15:09:28     From Dee Shull : Xochiquetzal, do we as pagans need to create tranisition rites that acknowledge the body work involved in hormones and / or surgery?
15:09:43     From Yeshe Rabbit : Coconut Mysteries
15:09:46     From Xochiquetzal, : I would like to see that.
15:09:47     From River Devora : THere are indiiduals who already have, Dee…
15:09:54     From Magdalena : We are all pure spirit, pure formlessness.  That’s our, how you say, “natural” state.  I believe our soul desires to return to its state, and that’s this “upward pull” towards divinity or enlightenment or union with Spirit.  So that liminality and fluidity is/was our birthright, and so Pagans/reclaimers seem to be front-and-center in that effort…
15:10:01     From Dee Shull : And, speaking as someone who embraces liminality, it can be *very* problematic out in the rest of the world.
15:10:12     From Dee Shull : And thank you, River, this is an area where I don’t have all the information. 🙂
15:10:28     From Xochiquetzal, : Sure, Magdalena. But while we’re embodied, we should probably look at what’s important to the bodies as well as the pure spirit we are.
15:10:31     From River Devora : For MY OWN practices, I’ve never really been into the dynamic tension stuff, it’s just not how my spirituality has ever worked, though I respect that this makes sense for others…
15:10:41     From Magdalena : Totally agreed Xochiquetzal!
15:11:38     From Erica Shadowsong : How do we keep a safe space for people who have lived in the world as a gender, most likely assigned to them, complete with oppression that has come with that identity, without excluding others who claim that identity but have not had it acknowledged by the dominant culture and thus may not have had the same experience that compels those who have to feel that they need that space?  I hope I”m asking this question all right.  I feel like when I encounter these groups that’s where some of the fear comes from, and we just came from a panel talking about color and race.  I might have people want to be present in a space that is meant to be safe for me as a person of color becuase they want to be allies or witnesses, but I’m not likely to have someone want to be a part of that space because they identify as a person of color with a shared identity with me that they don’t in the world actually have.  do we need those safe spaces the way some of these groups seem to think they do?  do we need just to change how we
15:11:56     From Erica Shadowsong : perceive what constitutes the safety?  and if so, where can we look to learn how to do that?
15:11:59     From Erica Shadowsong : ty
15:12:25     From Magdalena : Erica, well-said.
15:13:08     From Erica Shadowsong : dunno if it was lol hope it makes sense and I hope I’m asking sensitively
15:13:51     From Robin Grimm, Minneapolis : that came across as very sensitive Erica and also very thought provoking. no quick answer from me 🙂
15:14:22     From Dee Shull : Thank you for asking the question, Erica!
15:14:32     From Rev Keith V, Wiccan Church of Minnesota : By recognizing that all things contain a mix of masculin and feminine, we can start to blur the gender duality that many see in Wicca.  It isn’t the end all, but it is a start.
15:15:02     From Dee Shull : But Keith, that unfortunately excludes individuals who do NOT identify with either the masculine or the feminine – specifically, one of our panelists identifies as metagender.
15:15:08     From Dee Shull : That also excludes agender people.
15:15:45     From Shauna Aura Knight : I have tried to stop using words like masculine and feminine at all. Which is a challenge, and I don’t always get there.
15:15:55     From Elena Rose : I think, Erica, we need to be in relationship.  For instance, as a trans woman, I experience sexism like any woman.  I think part of how we get out of this trap is to organize around an experience or task or work.  Instead of saying, “This is for people of color and I’ll decide whether or not you are one,” we can say, “We are working on our experiences of racist oppression and these are the ways we agree to be together.”  We can agree to center and prioritize the experiences of people who experience that thing, and will not permit behavior otherwise.”
15:16:14     From Elena Rose : And a lot of those people who make messes, who show up and take up room and talk over, will sort themselves out.
15:16:28     From Dee Shull : Elena, thank you for your answer!
15:16:30     From River Devora : I think Erica’s question is really important, and I think it also speaks to how important it is to clearly label the intention/purpose of a ritual, and what is to happen in that space. This way, discussion and ritual work stays on-point, and folks can decide wehther or npt it is appropriate for them to participate.
15:16:39     From Rev Keith V, Wiccan Church of Minnesota : I understand that Dee.  Like I said, it is a starting point.  We need to incorporate more a genderless ideal like an element.  We assign geneder to elements, but they really are non gender identified by thier nature.
15:17:21     From River Devora : I know for me, I have intentionally chosen NOT to attend certain rituals, precisely because I wasn’t the target audience, regardless of how others might identify me (correctly or not).
15:17:30     From Yeshe Rabbit : What Lupus is saying right now really touches on the internalized shame that queer bodies often bear- yet this is society’s burden, not an individual burden. We just force individuals to bear it because we don’t want to.
15:18:08     From Dee Shull : Thank you for that clarification, Keith. 🙂
15:18:33     From Rev Keith V, Wiccan Church of Minnesota : Text is hard to get full concepts across.  🙁
15:19:40     From John Medellin, Pantheon Foundation : I get you, Rev.
15:19:57     From Bethie : Elena, isn’t that the American way? #Sarcasm
15:20:21     From Robin Lasirena : Elena, that is so validating to hear. Thank you.
15:20:22     From Erica Shadowsong : wonderful answers and appreciate the unpacking.  one of the reasons I ask this is with my identity also as a person of color, I’m aware of perhaps a twisted “privilege” in that the activist conversation in the last panel was very affirming of the need for safe space for someone like me.  there has been an acknowledging of how a dynamic changes when members of a dominant culture are present amongst people who are oppressed in “their” space.  is there truly a similar change of dynamic in groups who believe they need a safe space for their gender identity?
15:20:44     From River Devora : Thank you for saying this, Elena! Call this out!!
15:21:07     From Robin Lasirena : I often feel like I’m not successful because of that societal definition. When in fact I have a good, rich life. Not monetarily, but in experience.
15:22:17     From Yeshe Rabbit : This is common ground where we can meet, I think, many of us. The shame ground of not being the standard- even most white, male, cis, het men I know don’t fit “the standard!”
15:22:27     From River Devora : The “safe space” thing is… so very complicated, I think. And I am so glad you’re bringing this up. As a gender queer person, I have often not felt safe in queer women’s space, so I don’t go – it’s not appropriate for me to be there, and I don’t feel safe there.
15:22:56     From River Devora : I think some of it is about navigating invisible identities vs. visible identities, and there are differences in how oppression shows up in these ways.
15:23:11     From Dee Shull : River, well put, and thank you!
15:24:01     From Erica Shadowsong : yes…you know it occurs to me that this may be another example, safe space, where we are reinforcing oppression because we ourselves are oppressed.  it’s reactionary rather than …I don’t know what the word would be.  Maybe it’s an illusion, that there could not be “safe space” in asituation that looks different
15:24:14     From Rev Keith V, Wiccan Church of Minnesota : River, can you explain more about what invisible identity is?
15:25:33     From Erica Shadowsong : language…
15:25:57     From Yeshe Rabbit : hospitality rather than inclusion
15:26:02     From Yeshe Rabbit : brilliant
15:26:04     From Yeshe Rabbit : YES
15:26:08     From Jaina Bee : Jai Ganesha!
15:26:09     From Robin Lasirena : Yes i love it
15:26:23     From Yeshe Rabbit : This is very Tantric
15:26:30     From Magdalena : Yeshe 🙂
15:26:44     From John Beckett : That’s extremely helpful, Elena – thank you
15:26:52     From Erica Shadowsong : yes very very very
15:27:04     From Xochiquetzal, : YAAAAASSSSSSS
15:27:23     From Magdalena : So much BRAVO Elena
15:27:33     From Shauna Aura Knight : Absolutely. Thank you for saying this.
15:27:41     From Vyviane : Love it Elena- Hospitality not inclusion
15:27:50     From Bethie : ******sparkle hands*******
15:27:52     From Camilla Laurentine : Yes!  Well said!
15:28:06     From Dee Shull : Keith, River said the following:
15:28:07     From Dee Shull : Invisible – I am queer and genderqueer. Both of these identities are pretty invisible to someone who doesn’t know me when I show up to the grocery store with my toddler. As long as I’m walking and talking, you don’t see my chronic illnesses. So the identities where I experience oppression are places where I’m erased and assumed to be like others. So I have a certain kind of “passing” priviledge, but am penalised more harshly when these idenities become apparent. A person of color, or a more obviously gender transgressing person is subejct to oppression right off the bat – folks look at them and “know” what they think they need to know.
15:28:21     From Magdalena : Dee, thank you SO MUCH for sharing
15:28:21     From Erica Shadowsong : agree Lupus…language is is the absence of language
15:28:36     From Magdalena : Resonating with a bunch of that.
15:28:49     From Dee Shull : (That was kind of my fault, I pinged River privately and River’s response came back in that private channel.)
15:29:06     From Yeshe Rabbit : It took me a long time to get pronouns, but once I got it, I really got it. Naming matters in the formula of thought—word—action.
15:29:09     From Shauna Aura Knight : Thanks for articulating the invisibility, that was useful for me.
15:29:20     From Elena Rose : Yes.  True names matter.
15:29:26     From Rev Keith V, Wiccan Church of Minnesota : Thank you Dee. I missed that.
15:29:29     From Elena Rose : It’s part of being scrupulous and truthful with our word.
15:29:35     From Yeshe Rabbit : And exact.
15:29:58     From Rev Keith V, Wiccan Church of Minnesota : Thank you to all of you for sharing!
15:30:11     From Xochiquetzal, : Lou is talking about watching the amount of space you take.
15:30:19     From Erica Shadowsong : oooo
15:30:23     From Erica Shadowsong : very good point thank you Lou
15:30:56     From Magdalena : Namaste!  Thanks to our panelists!
15:30:56     From Syren Jill : Thank you Thank you Thank you!
15:30:56     From River Devora : Blessings and thanks to the panelists!
15:30:56     From Xochiquetzal, : Paying attention to what you do in your physical space as well as in the magical space. To look at who’s around you and pay attention to who needs to be elevated. (I think, Lou can correct me.)
15:30:56     From Robin Grimm, Minneapolis : that was great
15:31:09     From John Beckett : Thanks to all the presenters!
15:31:10     From Xochiquetzal, : Thank you all of you!!!!!!!!
15:31:11     From Vyviane : Thank you to everyone!
15:31:16     From Magdalena : Xochiquetzal, absolutely a crucial point
15:31:26     From Robin Lasirena : Thanks so much for the conversation to all.
15:31:27     From Bethie : You all rock. Thank you. <3
15:31:32     From Camilla Laurentine : Thank you, everyone!
15:32:18     From Dee Shull : Hospitality is an amazing thing to have given us, thank you Elena!
15:32:20     From Xochiquetzal, : #PACOGENDER #PACO #RITEaction
15:32:35     From Erica Shadowsong : yay food
15:32:39     From Vyviane : Can’t wait!
15:32:41     From P. Sufenas Virius Lupus : Brilliant, everyone!  Thank you all!  Thanks, Dee, Lou, and Elena especially!



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